Comments: Here's a thought

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Hey Felix...looks like we're up and at 'em at the same time! ;-)

I was thinking along similar lines when I heard about this new Pledge fiasco yesterday. I mean, if abortion rights are "firmly embedded" in the American collective sociology after only 30 years, then it sure seems the Pledge is after over 50 (when "under God" was added).

Posted by Hube at September 15, 2005 04:19 PM

Ask yourselves: Why was it necessary in the first place to put "under God" into the pledge 50 years ago? It's as necessary as it is unnecessary (if that makes sense).

Posted by Mike M. at September 15, 2005 05:24 PM

Well, there 'ya go, Mike -- if it's "as necessary as it is unnecessary," then it doesn't matter if it's in the Pledge, right? (Apparently the phrase was put there to combat the "godless communists" at the beginning of the Cold War.)

But to the point: isn't the Pledge part of the American fabric -- like abortion rights supposedly are?

Posted by Hube at September 15, 2005 05:32 PM

No, I don't think it's part of the national fabric. Keep it in the churches or private and parochial schools. I, for one, do buy the judge's "coersion" reasoning. In fact, as I was growing up, we were VERBALLY ASSAULTED by teachers if we didn't stand and salute the flag with our hand over our heart in full recitation mode.

"Coersion" is a creepy thing. Unfortunately, I don't think six-year olds know how to deal with it.

I'll flip the coin on you: I guess it doesn't matter if it ISN'T in the pledge seeing as how we went 60 years without it in there. Too bad the estate of noted socialist Francis Bellamy, who wrote the Pledge, can't cause a ruckus. It's a shame some uppity senator frightened by those Soviet "atheists" needed to amend what was an already perfect pledge to one's country. It is those who want it IN who are screwing up its intensions.

Posted by Mike M. at September 15, 2005 05:52 PM

If you were "verbally assaulted" by teachers for not reciting the Pledge, then not only were your constitutional rights violated, your teachers sucked. (Unless you went to a private or parochial school, then I'm not certain about the violation of rights.) And, there are students who aren't permitted to wear certain garb in school and/or say certain things. Is it coercion to make students comply w/these regulations?

OK, so maybe the Pledge isn't part of the American fabric. Then, certainly, abortion "rights" aren't either, which is what Felix's post was about anyways. I mean, which has been around longer, right? ;-)

Still, my prediction: the 9th circuit will uphold the recent judge's ruling, but the SCOTUS will overturn it by a 6-3 ruling. God will continue, as it has since the Founding, to be a part of the American fabric. Whether atheists like it or not.

Posted by Hube at September 15, 2005 07:52 PM

If you were verbally assaulted as in 'you piece of lazy as# sh*t, get on your sorry as# feet and say it...SAY IT!(said in Sam Kinison scream)....or if you were verbally assaulted as in ' good people died for the right to say this pledge and I won't have a lazy ner'duwell slacker scoff as if it is a burden for you to say a few words in honor of those lost heroes who would have tears in their eyes if they saw your ignorant behavior towards our flag'. If it were the latter, then what great American educators you had the privilege to be taught by!

Posted by cardinals fan at September 15, 2005 09:45 PM

Hube,

You're right. Abortion isn't part of the national fabric. It shouldn't be. It should be part of a woman's "fabric," meaning she can do with her body whatever the heck she pleases. As disgusted by abortion as I am, I think you know where I stand on it. I've said it over and over. I am personally pro-life, however, I don't own the bodies of the millions of women in this country who can make that decision themselves.

As for the teacher who "verbally assaulted" us, we were young and dumb high school students who did as we were told to avoid getting detentions, as were promised us if we didn't stand. Yes, it was public school.

And, cardinals fan, I thought we liberals were supposed to be the elitists!

Posted by Mike M. at September 15, 2005 10:00 PM

By the way, here's an interesting site on the history of the Pledge and its evolution over the past 100+ years.

Click Me

Posted by Mike M. at September 15, 2005 10:06 PM

I went to private school. We never said the pledge. I currently teach at a public school. I don't say the pledge, and I don't ask my students to, either. I ask that they stand during it, though.

I think that the pledge, far from being part of the American Fabric (nice metaphor, btw), is largely meaningless in public schools. Personally, I'd rather hear someone recite the day's lunch menu, as inspiring as it is these days.

Posted by Bronwen at September 15, 2005 11:25 PM

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