Comments: The Guerena Shooting, Analysis 5.2

I hope they eat shit and live with unbearable shame for the rest of thier lives.

Posted by rumcrook at September 30, 2011 12:57 AM

I remember talking to a Tucson area customs guy. One of the things that a Tucson mid-level drug trafficking organization does is drive pickups full of bales of marijuana across the border at night and (if necessary) through ICE/BP/police roadblocks. It turns out that bales of MJ are actually pretty effective at stopping bullets. He figured they made good money if 1/3 made it, but he estimated that it was more like 75% that made it.

Posted by Kevin at September 30, 2011 02:06 AM

They didn't bring the SWAT team because they thought he was dangerous.

They brought it because they thought he wasn't dangerous and it would be fun.

Posted by Phelps at September 30, 2011 11:21 AM

What a Class A F-up!!! There was no discussion in the interview as to why the last shooter jumped on the back of one of the crouched SWATs to empty his pistol into the house in a seemingly "Hey! I want some TOO!" response.

This is why cops are losing the trust of the people. I think I've said on these boards if I were to see a uniformed cop in a bad situation, I'd probably do an about face and walk the other way. Getting too hard to tell the bad guys apart. If I saw a bunch of cops headed to my front door, the last thing I would do is open it.

Posted by Col Bat Guano at September 30, 2011 01:02 PM

So, how did Guerena know he was "under attack?" He knew because his wife told him they were under attack.

And you admit that the police were in uniform, sounded sirens, activated red and blue flashing lights, and knocked and announced, 7 seconds worth.

You also state that to know it was the police, they would have to have looked out the front window.

So, which window of the house did Vanessa look out? Were there other police officers or deputies station outside other parts of the house?

I think no. Therefore, the only way that Vanessa could know that the house "was under attack" would to have looked out the front window.

Therefore she saw the police. Therefore she either set up her husband or she is lying.

Therefore, despite any failures on the part of the police, it is either Jose Guerena's fault he is dead or Vanessa Guerena's fault.

It is abundently clear though that the Guerena's knew it was the police and they decided to resist.

It also seems that Jose spent an inordinate amount of time from when the police first appeared to hiding his family in a closet and arming himself.

How much time was if from when the police sounded sirens to when they broke open the door? 20 seconds?

It is also clear that you have no idea what was in Jose's mind, as he is dead. There is no basis for your conclusion that had he come to the door to comply with the orders that he would have been shot. That is baseless specuation and defamatory.

It is clear from the record that the police shot because they saw him armed.

I do concur with your view of the questioning. It is clear that the questions are deliberately leading and suggestive. I have seen similar and it is the reason that ouside agencies or internal affairs units should conduct such investigations.

It is clear though that you are not subjecting Vanessa's statement to the same detail and attention that you are applying to the detectives investigating the shooting and the answers from the officers involved.

You would do well to be a more discerning about Vanessa's statements to the press and subject it to the same attention to detail and the problems created by her statements.

In the end, all hangs on what Vanessa says she saw. Which, by the way, does not fit the facts that even you admit to.

Fact: Vanessa says she was awake and up at the time the warrant was served.

Fact: Vanessa says she looked out a window and saw armed men attacking her house.

Fact: Vanessa says she awoke her husband and told him the house was under attack by armed men.

Fact: The police sounded a siren and activated emergency lights before approaching the house.

Fact: The police were uniformed and identified with "POLICE" on the front and back of their raid vests.

Fact: The police knocked and announced, then waited 7 seconds to effect entry.

Those are the pertinant facts. It is not relevant that the supervisor of the raid did not properly assign and control the entry team.

It is not relevant that there was no proper stack.

You need to deal with the important facts, not the minutia that is not quite relevant to the issue of whether the Guerena's knew it was the police.

They have a problem of execution, but not one of justification.

The SWAT team needs more training and better supervision, but that does not explain Vanessa Guerena's strange tale.

Posted by Federale at October 3, 2011 11:22 AM

I'm glad you're keeping up with this. It seemed like it might be fading because of jobs reports, but then "Gunwalker" and "Fast and Furious" came to light as well.

There needs to be a sea of change in the entire perception police departments and the political class that directs them of armed citizens, and citizens recording them during the course of duty.

Posted by Some Sock Puppet at October 3, 2011 08:33 PM