Comments: Pizza and guns

I'd encourage you not to report on gun crimes in Toronto because it's not a particularly worrying story. There have been 41 gun-related homicides in 2005 thus far, up from 27 in all of 2004. In 2003 it was 31. Considering that crimes rates are lower than they were 10, 20 or 30 years ago (, and that the vast majority of homicides are criminals shooting other criminals, why should we be worried?

Posted by Darren at September 26, 2005 01:44 AM

Well, I'm so glad you're not worried Darren. I guess you are fine living in a society that cheapens life. Because that's what happens when you let the scum rule the streets. Sure, at first they are just shooting each other and you chuckle because they're doing what the courts wouldn't do and it's one less drug dealer on the street. And so what if a stray bullet or two kills an innocent bystander. But eventually the scum realize the law isn't doing much about them and they become more brazen. The scum terrorize the law-abiding people of the communities in which they live. How often do you hear nowadays about witnesses to murders that are unwilling to cooperate with the police? Why do you think that is Darren?

As for citing crime statistics that are declining, remember it's the STATISTICS that are declining not necessarily the crime. Ever have your car broken into? The first time it happens, as a somewhat naive law-abiding citizen you dutifully report it to the police and you are surprised that they don't seem all that bothered. They don't come out to the "scene of the crime" and take fingerprints or any of that neat stuff you see on CSI. I mean, isn't that what they are supposed to do? To you, this is a serious crime - you've been violated. To the police it's nothing. All you get from them is a file number that you can use to report it to your insurance company. And maybe you were just naive enough to file a claim with the insurance company and then promptly saw your rates increase. Now just what do you think you're going to do the next time somebody breaks into your car? Like, why bother?

So when someone starts citing crime statistics, take it with a grain of salt because not all crime gets reported. Victims learn pretty quickly what types of crime get police attention and learn to just shrug off the rest.

Posted by TimR at September 26, 2005 02:56 AM

Tim R is providing you with a keen insight to policing in Canada today. Read and re-read and understand to your benefit.

Managing an Apartment complex in rural town Vancouver Island, my eyes were opened to a much adjusted picture of what [the RCMP in this case], were up against in keeping the peace in any community.

Well that's just it. Keeping the peace is the priority above all else.

Calming domestics first and then teen gang face offs and lastly bar fights.

Property crime comes in a distant second.

As usual it comes down to money. If so much of our tax dollar was not being siphoned off through TPC; 2.9 billion, and Adscam; unknown Billions with monies going to Hotel and golf course complexes in Shawinigan Quebec to untold wealth being socked away in investigative immune secret trusts, there may have been enough funding to pay for a better level of property crime policing.

As it is, teens who dabble in auto and house break-ins and who are not penalized are then candidates for more serious crimes. There is a severe cost to both citizens and teens when the Martin Government can not afford to apply corrections through penalties that our laws call for.

BTW.. more good advice. Property management looks easy on the surface, but be warned, it is anything but easy and it is also one of the most thankless jobs you would ever have the luck to avoid.

When the building owner provides you with papers of eviction to serve on a tenant, and that tenant is so ignorant as to imagine you are personally picking on him and he lashes out and punches you in the face, what kind of justice is that?
What kind of justice is it when the constable collects evidence, [broken tooth], lays a charge wins a conviction, and the judge lets the perp off?

That violent person now understand he can smash people in the face and go scott free.

We better get that Whistle-Blower Protection law Bill C-11 in place soon, http:// , so revenues are safe guarded and we can afford the policing quality we once had in the 60s. 73s TG

Posted by TonyGuitar at September 26, 2005 04:24 AM

You all realize that this "bloody summer" is nothing more that hype, right? Toronto's murder rate is almost always 50-70 a year. Metro homicide decetives usually spilt the difference and say "60 a year" Still very low for a city of 3-4 million people.
Also, the "dark figure of crime" (unreported crime) that TimR touches on is something that is usually considered by insurance and law enforcement agencies as well, and included in "unoffical" statistics. So they do know what the REAL crime is. And its still failrly low for a city of 3-4 million people

(Nowhere near the United States murder rates with its oh-so free gunlaws.)

Posted by Booyah at September 26, 2005 02:06 PM

Tim: I'll be glad to listen to your argument when you've got some facts to back it up. Can you provide any studies, reports or other evidence that, in fact, crime reporting rates have declined. On the contrary, I've read that rape reports, for example, have increased significantly in recent years (

I'd be curious to see any unbiased evidence that supports your thesis.

Posted by Darren at September 26, 2005 04:02 PM

What seems to be overlooked by those who rush to dowplay the danger is what these gun battles are doing to the people who are forced to live with it.

Imagine: a generation is growing up believing that gang warfare is "normal."

Before you judge, consider how you would explain to your child why gunfire erupted during a birthday party.

Tell your child you'd rather they not go to a basketball court until the blood stains fade.

These murders and attempted murders are taking place openly - day and night - and attempts to minimalize it are either cowardly (see "afraid of being accused of racism so better to let young black men die") or indifference to wrongful death.

The good news: the pious "if it saves one life" intonations are revealed as utter hypocrisy.

Posted by Debbye at September 26, 2005 04:02 PM

Many eons ago, I lived in the vicinity of Toronto the Good. Somebody in the Toronto Police suggested that a task force dedicated to combating crime gangs organized on ethnicity be formed to stop these gangs before they got a toehold. That guy was chastised, as forming such a group would be saying that some immigrants committed crimes. Guess what? He was right, and the barn door can't be closed now. We Canadians are "stuck on stupid!"

Posted by DoubtingThomas at September 26, 2005 10:40 PM

"Long ago I desisted from reporting on gun crimes in Toronto. There may have been a slender window of opportunity to crack down on the gangs, but I think that time has passed and gangs are securely entrenched."

Why are you just recycling gibberish from the late 80s/early 90s? Seriously, read some newspapers from about 15 years ago when the murder rate in Toronto spiked and read all the hysterical gibberish they wrote that you're now repeating.

Posted by Robert McClelland at September 27, 2005 12:21 AM

Booyah, [2:06pm] You made some interesting comments but then you jumped to this conclusion:

Nowhere near the United States murder rates
with its oh-so free gunlaws.

Maybe you are a young person, but the registry made no difference whatever. Canada always had that same murder ratio rate with or without it.

Gun laws seem to have very little effect on murder rates. Many other factors have far more to do with it. 73s TG

Posted by TonyGuitar at September 27, 2005 12:55 AM

Doubting Thomas, [10:40pm] Every word correct.. I'm coming aboard to ride with you. '3s TG

Posted by TonyGuitar at September 27, 2005 01:02 AM

Darren, it's a bit difficult to prove a negative, isn't it? I, for one, did the police report on a car breakin years ago in Vancouver (#3,4?? in January), and since then, when locks jammed from attempted entry or windows broken & CDs stolen, I just fixed or replaced them. It wasn't worth the hassle.

As for the report of rapes rising, keep in mind that it is STILL the most-under-reported crime, and likely always will be.

Here's hoping that the next time you go for pizza isn't your last.

Posted by Candace at September 27, 2005 01:15 AM

Really? Nationwide Stats


Murder Rate:
0.01 per 1000 people (489 (2000))

Firearm Murder Rate: (165 (1999))
0.00 per 1000 people

United States:

Murder Rate
12,658 (1999) 0.04 per 1000 people

Fire Arm Murder Rate
8,259 (1999) 0.02 per 1000 people

Before you start splitting hairs over .01 differences, The United States ranked as 24th out of 62 nations. Which according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention, puts it above average. (in countries w/o an armed conflict going on). For Firearms murders, it is 4th in the world.


Land of the free...gun laws.

NOTE: Before you start playing with the stats TG, i'd like to remind you that these are murders. They do not include suicides and accidental firearms deaths. Canada's per capaita rates "shoot up" when those are factored in, but guess what? So does the United States.

Posted by Booya at September 28, 2005 11:01 PM

Booya, I'd be interested to see a breakdown of those statistics by state. The highest gun crime rates in the US are in jurisdictions with tight gun control, up to and including DC, where handguns are essentially illegal.

Posted by Dave J at September 29, 2005 11:50 PM