Comments: Compassionate Conservative?

Read a little more carefully eh? The DOCTORS ARE donating their time and skills, the HOSPITAL is not.

As a surgeon who donates time regularly, I am a little tired of the "rich, greedy doctors" meme. I worked for 12 years after my BSc. degree to develop my skills, getting paid minimum wage or less and working 100 hours a week. It isn't too much to ask that I get some sort of return on that investment is it?

Or are you one of those liberals who believes in wealth distribution, and taking things from people?

Have you read "Atlas Shrugged" lately?

posted by pedro on November 12, 2005 06:29 PM

Nice strawman. Nowhere in Key's comments was wealth redistribution mentioned. The issue was that a patient who drastically needs care isn't receiving it while people with significantly higher incomes than average (and corporate healthcare) have refused treatment to her without payment.

It's not about doctors not being paid what they are worth. I suppose to me it's the moral and ethical issue of being able to help someone, and not needing the money to help them, but refusing to do so.

posted by catzmeow on November 13, 2005 12:17 AM

No cat, you are demanding that someone else do something you were not willing to do. As I point out, the surgeons are doing it for free, the hospital needs to get paid.

And the hospitals DO need the money. Who is going to take care of you when you get a car wreck, or a heart attack? You think the hospitals don't have costs? Why do you think trauma centers are shutting down all over the place? What happens when the hospitals can't pay their bills anymore? When was the last time YOU donated any money to a hospital?

I love the fact that you are being "moral and ethical" with someone else's sweat and blood.

Remember, "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need...."

Sound familiar? Great idea eh?

posted by pedro on November 13, 2005 12:14 PM

Dear, do your own math, and I suspect you will find that I am not as far to "the left" as you say, nor are you as far to "the right" as you like to think.

When fundamental principles collide with specific cases, I suspect you will find the world a much different place than when you view it through your usual lenses.

Think about it.

posted by Jack on November 13, 2005 07:52 PM

[I]No cat, you are demanding that someone else do something you were not willing to do. As I point out, the surgeons are doing it for free, the hospital needs to get paid.
[/i]

Actually, I'm suggesting that the surgeons were educated partially at my expense (are you going to pretend that public and private universities are self-sustaining based upon tuition fees?) Most Hospitals also receive beaucoup tax dollars, as well. Perhaps we should institute policies REQUIRING corporate medicine to donate a portion of their (not insignificant) profits to needy causes like this, and not the end run they do using medicaid, either.

And, the article DOES NOT explicitly say that the surgeons are donating their services entirely. Hello, Skillet. It's me, Pot.

[i]And the hospitals DO need the money. Who is going to take care of you when you get a car wreck, or a heart attack? You think the hospitals don't have costs? Why do you think trauma centers are shutting down all over the place? What happens when the hospitals can't pay their bills anymore? When was the last time YOU donated any money to a hospital?[/i]

Oh, really? You think we're all retarded, don't you? I'm guessing that you believe we're all blissfully unaware that healthcare corporations like HCA continue to post significant profit margins.

[i]ove the fact that you are being "moral and ethical" with someone else's sweat and blood. [/i]

Given that my tax dollars go to contribute to people like you having significantly higher earnings than my own, I don't really feel a moment's remorse about that. After all, if people like me (the shrinking middle class) didn't pay our taxes, there wouldn't have been much of an opportunity for you to better yourself.

Further, I give my own blood. I work for a living with violent gang members. Want to change jobs for a week? By all means, let me know.

posted by catzmeow on November 14, 2005 04:04 PM

Now its a little more clear...fundamental difference of opinion.

You are a socialist,profit, bad, free labor...good.

Read the article, the surgeons are waiting to get cleared by the hospital.

Tell you what, check out countries that don't let surgeons earn any money...start in Russia. Then look for things like NICU's etc...they don't exist.

I spent more nights awake keeping violent gang members alive than I care to remember...we used to have a saying, "the life you save tonight may take yours tomorrow".

fine you like socialised medicine..no problem. but kids like this will rot in those systems. And you won't find anyone technically able to treat them.

Like I said, where do all these cases end up? The US of A

The average surgeon has 150K in debt when they are done with training. They don't start earning a real salary until they are about 33-35 y/o. In the meantime they earn 40K a year, but, can't work any more than 100 hours a week! Oh and they do that for 5 or 6 years after their MD.

You want wealth redistribution, fair enough. There won't be enough hospitals to take care of you and your ilk within 5 years.

You can't get something for nothing toots....

posted by pedro on November 14, 2005 04:23 PM

Nope. Wrong.

I'm not. I'm a capitalist...WITH A HEART.

Way to engage in an ad hominem versus talking about the responsibility to humanity that goes hand in hand with capitalism.

My dad was a small businessman for 30 years. He owned a small heating and air conditioning shop. I understand capitalism INSIDE AND OUT. However, it seems a few capitalists (by far, not the majority), have forgotten two things. First, that no man is an island, and that they didn't get where they are alone. They got where they are because people HELPED THEM. I have a great job. I have a good education. Did I spring hatched from the egg fully educated and employed? Nope. People...family, friends, educators and even strangers, made it their business to help me.

Secondly, there is more to life than the bottom line. Companies are reliant upon the GOODWILL of their customers to survive.

We are all on this planet together, and there is more at stake here than making a buck. People MATTER. People's LIVES MATTER. This is why pure capitalism, where everything revolves around the dollar purely and solely is EVIL. This is why capitalism in this country has always had to be regulated because left to their own devices, SOME CAPITALISTS are unable to police themselves and do what they SHOULD DO.

It's a shame that some folks in the healthcare industry have forgotten to an important word in there. CARE.

It's not that I think government should step in and tell business what to do. I think it's that WE, your neighbors and customers, have a right and an obligation to tell you what we expect from you.

Catz

posted by catzmeow on November 14, 2005 08:18 PM

Wow, you really are confused.

Tyranny of the majority? My work and sweat is no longer my own, but services the whim of my neighbors and customers? You really haven't read "Atlas Shrugged" have you?

Of course people matter, that is why people like me train for a dozen years and wake our families up in the middle of the night (not getting a dime for it either). The problem is the infra-structure costs money.

And if you really believe that "Companies are reliant upon the GOODWILL of their customers to survive", then you should go read the definition of socialist again, cause you are a believer.

Companies make a product or perform a service that has value to someone else. The customer believes that he or she gets something of value when they purchase it. Goodwill never comes into the equation, nor should it.

Look, I don't mean this as a personal attack, but you have no understanding of capitalism or healthcare politics. Thats OK, but you would be better off not deluding yourself otherwise.

posted by pedro on November 14, 2005 09:41 PM

Wow, Pedro and Catz!

I love a healthy capitalist-related debate going on in my comments; who doesn't? :D

But I think you two are closer together than you may realize. I was hoping the post that I put up last night would bridge the gap a bit. Even made a reference to the almighty Atlas Shrugged, which of course I read! Pre-req to conservative blogging, non?

Personally, I prefer Fountainhead, but Atlas Shrugged seems to be more popular for some reason. I was drawn to Rand's vocabulary, strong characters, and, obviously, healthy appreciation of capitalism.

For years after I read them, I thought they should be senior Lit requirements. However, her point is lost to many due to her caustic melodrama.

While adults will chug down the vilest of tonics if they see the benefit of the product, a child will spit it out every time. So it is with Rand. The people who most need the message will never take it in. The presentation is all wrong, and frankly...too extreme.

Ever notice that there are no children in her books? There cannot be. This is because mankind cannot be as selfish as she urges us to be, and still raise children.

Even the most conservative, most capitalistic mindset has room in his or her life for a little compassion...not an enabling amount, but a human amount.

posted by Key on November 15, 2005 11:44 AM
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