Comments: Putting it into perspective

I love it when you talk politics!

Posted by Beth at May 15, 2007 04:21 AM

Excellent!

Posted by Wild Thing at May 15, 2007 08:24 AM

*clap* *clap* *clap*

Posted by Janette at May 15, 2007 08:24 AM

Love this chart!!! Who would know that from the press reports?

Posted by Anita at May 15, 2007 09:02 AM

Glad to see four votes for raising taxes to actually support our military, but I have to wonder how many Iraq vets you folks know. I know quite a few, which might be why "the way these kids talk to me" includes fewer of the problems identified in the 14 May posting.

Anita: Anyone with a brain and a knowledge of history would know those facts from press reports, but you might not know how many mercenaries (Blackwater, et al) have died. That, and the high wages those soldiers earn, are not reported.

They would also know that the number of deaths is unrelated to whether the cause (creating a democratically elected government free to ally itself with anyone it chooses, or form a Shiite state sort of like Iran) is lost or not.

Posted by CCPhysicist at May 15, 2007 10:11 AM

Look at that -- it's all right there in blue and red!

Posted by Marie at May 15, 2007 01:20 PM

Glad to see four votes for raising taxes to actually support our military,
Laughable non sequitur! (And do you always cheer raising taxes?)

I have to wonder how many Iraq vets you folks know. I know quite a few,
We have black friends, too!

Anyone with a brain and a knowledge of history would know those facts from press reports, but you might not know how many mercenaries (Blackwater, et al) have died.

Yes, because the press reports ALWAYS lay it out the same way. "A brain and a knowledge of history," plus the TIME and RESOURCES to lay it out in such a way. Again, a pointless ad hominem which completely ignores reality. Furthermore, when the "antiwar" (misnomer alert!) crowd starts shrieking about contractors (mercenaries? FUCK YOU) dying there, it will become an issue in this argument. All I've heard from your kind is the classic "Screw them."

They would also know that the number of deaths is unrelated to...

Oh, right--like deaths due to car accidents and unrelated health issues are excluded when the "people with a brain" (unlike we rednecks) shriek about BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! and claim they "support" the troops by wanting to save them from their own jobs. You have a brain, so you say--would you mind telling everyone how many deaths in Iraq are combat-related and how many of those in the oft-chanted count are not?

Obnoxious prick. Guess you figured (like your kind always does) that these little wimmen wouldn't have much to say in response to your assault on the rules of logic and truth, didn't you? Sorry, but thanks for playing!

Posted by Beth at May 15, 2007 02:16 PM

Beth, it would only be a non sequitur if I had been replying to your comment about politics rather than the posted assertion "Quit whining you pussies and step in and support the men and women out there who really put themselves on the line FOR YOU." At this point in time, only a minority of Americans have sacrificed anything for our troops, mostly family members. And, yes, I would cheer if we paid for this war rather than putting it all on a credit card to be paid by kids just starting school today. That is what it means to support our troops. AFAIK, the only person who agrees with me is a Republican Congressman from Michigan. What "kind" does that make him?

I find it merely amusing that someone whose strongest closing argument is a series of ad hominem insults would think that the simple fact that the press regularly reports the death rate in Iraq and the fact that history books tell you that hundreds came home every week from Vietnam are anything but simple facts. You could check my memory by looking up an old newspaper or Time from 1968, but AFAIR the press reported the numbers from the official DoD press release then just like they do now.

Nothing personal (or sexist) was directed at Anita. Her knee-jerk reaction is typical of many people who say things like that but then can't point to a newspaper article that claims the military death rate in Iraq is worse than Vietnam. My comments would be exactly the same if the poster was male. Don't you think she should be treated equally in a discussion?

I wrote "They would also know that the number of deaths is unrelated to whether the cause (creating a democratically elected government free to ally itself with anyone it chooses, or form a Shiite state sort of like Iran) is lost or not." in response to the originally posted conclusion of "Lost cause my ass." based on that graphic from Appeal for Courage. I don't see your "reply" as relevant to either point.

Were you actually reacting to my other observation about mercenaries? I only know about that because one of my engineering students told me he was thinking about leaving the army for the > 10x raise Blackwater would give him for the same work. One tour and his entire education is paid for along with a house and car. Quite a good deal, but he also told me how risky it is.

As for your question: Appeal for Courage does not provide any source for any of their data. IIRC, the DoD has generally excluded accidental deaths from the numbers they report. I don't remember what the policy was during Vietnam, but I do remember that US soldiers died in Vietnam before 1964. They use August 1964 because the Tonkin Gulf Resolution is generally regarded as the declaration of war in Vietnam.

Posted by CCPhysicist at May 15, 2007 07:35 PM

Let's not forget to health care that these soldiers are getting on site and in military hospitals. From those there saving lives, the survival rate for those wounded are also much higher.

I have talked to both vets of this war and those who survived multiple tours in Vietnam. Those members would fully agree with that report. As it was said it's in red white and blue for all to see.

Posted by Sarah at May 15, 2007 10:38 PM

Why aren't you over there?

Posted by Angryflower at May 17, 2007 04:48 PM

EXCUSE ME MA'AM!

AngryFlower, there are reasons why CTG is not there. If she could, she would have probably joined up in our nation's military, but that is not physically possible. Why aren't YOU there, or are you? Oh, before you ask, I have already served this country, and have been HONORABLY DISCHARGED from the best Army in the world. That is all I have to say :)

Posted by GMT at May 17, 2007 05:02 PM

What are we fighting for? Somebody please stop that war. What for?

Posted by I am a soldier at May 18, 2007 06:33 AM

It always amazes non-americans the way you glorify the deaths and killings of other peoples. Could you post that graphic but include the Iraqi death toll? and about that part of "...on the line FOR YOU"... are you sure of that? or should it be "FOR THE SELECT FEW OF YOU". But im sure ill be flamed for that remark anyway, seeing the political inclination of this site, which i just stumbled upon. Please try to take off the Red/Blue/White lenses from your eyes and start seeing the world as it is, not as you see it on CNN/Fox/Whatever....

Posted by LuckilyNotAmerican at May 18, 2007 06:37 AM

LuckilyNotAmerican,
I am American and sadly you are quite correct. I am still a proud American, for what we were, not what we have become.

Posted by ProudAmerican at May 18, 2007 07:24 AM

Thanks for showing this chart. Of an age where many of my friends served willingly in VietNam, I am happy to support the brave people who are protecting us now.

Posted by Joanne at May 18, 2007 09:15 AM

For the critics and for those who demand, "If you support the war, why aren't YOU over there?"

I do support the war. I am not over there because I am 52 and have one ankle held together with screws.

But my son WAS over there, and he WILL be rotating back again. He is a First Lieutenant. He experienced some very, very hairy stuff: he had four vehicles blown out from under him. He lost three of his men. He was decorated with a Bronze Star for meritorious service in combat.

I.e., he should have absolute moral authority. So what does he say?

"Dad, you don't end a war by leaving, regardless of what Hillary Clinton says. A war doesn't end until BOTH sides agree to end it. They don't want it to end, so it won't end: it has to be finished.

"Dad, we need to be there. If we don't fight there, we'll fight here.

"Dad, it's getting better. They need us there. If we leave, it will be a bloodbath."

I normally don't comment on blog posts: it is like preaching to the choir (on one side), or like talking to a brick wall (on the other). But don't use that tired, crappy, useless pseudo-argument "Why aren't you over there?" on me, weasel. That dog don't hunt.
_____________

Posted by RJGatorEsq at May 18, 2007 09:20 AM

LuckilyNotAmerican,

Be careful what you wish for...

If I take off my "Red/Blue/White lenses", I'll be able to see you for what you really are. There's no guarantee that I'll like what I see.

Posted by Streaker at May 18, 2007 09:41 AM

lets put up some more stats. how about the number of deployed troops to the region and the death percentage. how about the fact that we aren't fighting an organized military. when you single out numbers like you did you can twist the facts. lets get all the numbers out there.

Posted by Tim at May 18, 2007 11:00 AM

Why don't we see this in the news. It's political gold!

Posted by Uri at May 18, 2007 11:20 AM

The fact that more people died in an earlier (and arguably stupid) war doesn't make the current one any less stupid.

Posted by Eric at May 18, 2007 11:51 AM

LickilynotAmerican, during the election in Iraq people stood in line as mortars fell to vote. That is a very powerful thing and they were willing to die for that ability. This is a process and it is one that most Iraqi's are now buying into. Al-anbar province has seen a steep decline in the violence because people have finally chosen to stand up and pick a side. I am curious in which country you live so I can get some sort of context to your point of view.

Posted by Therapist1 at May 18, 2007 11:58 AM

Working back up the list...
Tim: Figure roughly year tours (12 for the Army, 7 for the most Marines, more Army over there). Four years. 160,000 troops(ish). So call it about 640,000 troops cycled through. 3,000 or so battle deaths... 0.4%. I dont know what the actuary tables say for that demographic. Happy now?

Lucky: I think we're lucky you're not an American, too. Everybody's happy, it's just that we're not bitching to you in your home country.

Angryflower: Been over there three times, heading back for a fourth. I trust that you've been to at least that many peace rallies. Or, better yet, thanked that many gold star families for their sacrifice. Not holding my breath. But I'm sure you care about the humanity. Ah, so sensitive.

CCPhysicist: I didn't take your comments as particularly negative. Glad you speak to a lot of vets. Everybody fights their own war over there. I believe it's worth it, for any number of Americentric, humanistic, and realpolitik reasons. I'm baffled by the failure of folks to see the Americentric, humanistic, and realpolitik reasons for being there. Takes all kinds, but I prefer the kind that don't undermine if they can't support.

Caltechgirl: Thanks for the post.

Posted by MDC at May 18, 2007 12:01 PM

No, MDC, Thank YOU, For your service. Be safe over there.

Posted by caltechgirl at May 18, 2007 12:04 PM

Anyone who supports this so called "war on terror" aka the endless war to support the military industrial complex in it quest to rule the world is completely clueless. My country has embarked on becoming an empire, but it has cost us our constitution and the values that made us a great country. These endless wars are not for anyone but the elite; this war is not fought for freedom, not democracy, or any legitimate reason at all. Wake up America; we are getting screwed along with the rest of the world. Impeach for Treason!

Posted by Robert at May 18, 2007 12:11 PM

yeah, lets support our troops. lets stick little ribbons on our gas guzzlers and wave our american flags. seriously, quit believing the neocon line of crap that says anyone who disagrees with the war is unpatriotic. you redneck f-ers are dying to go and shoot shit up anyway. Quit bitching and go kill them sand niggers. no one cares about you or them, we just care about our own miserable lives. f-you blogger assholes, enjoy being shit on... wipe. i won't be back to read you meaningless responses.

Posted by blogcrapper at May 18, 2007 12:30 PM

Well, blog-sis, there *IS* a downside to attention from the Puppy Blender... I know I've seen these stats somewhere before, but not on such a lovely visual aid. ;-)

God bless the brave men and women over there, who have the courage and perseverance to serve our country - and who want to finish the job!

-- Kat

Posted by Kat at May 18, 2007 12:35 PM

There is no job to finish in Iraq, Mission Accomplished remember. All we are doing is buying time until we move on to the next phase of the war by illegally bombing Iran. Wake up people, this is not just, this is not moral, and this is not American. No one fighting over there is serving out country, which is a misconception. They are being taken advantage of by the elite neo-cons that have a very selfish agenda and donít care for life or liberty. They are using our honorable soldiers as pawns in a corporate war. Impeach for Treason!

Posted by Robert at May 18, 2007 12:46 PM

Hello.

It's called perspective. And FWIW, my husband IS stuck over there proudly being 'taken advantage of' because as John Kerry so aptly noted, he was too stoopid to study hard and he don't read gud either so he only got a Masters degree from a very competitive skool. That durned tinfoil really hurts his head too, but he can't take it off or the mind control rays from the Pentagon just fry his 3 remaining brain cells.

Waaahhhh!!!!

Posted by Cassandra at May 18, 2007 12:57 PM

Luckily Lex posted you'd gotten yourself an Instalanche or I'd not have caught all this. (I read it when you first posted it.)

Amazing isn't it at how times like these, the scum like 'blogcrapper' rears their ugly head and can't think of anything but vulgarity to express themselves. Their Mama must be so proud of the eloquence. How fortuitous that he/she will not be back.

On the flip side, it is always good for the soul to read people like RJGatoresq. I'll be keeping his son in my thoughts in prayers as I do the rest of our men and women serving this country so honorably.

Posted by Bou at May 18, 2007 02:05 PM

I'd just like to point out here that the deaths of united states citizens from suicide have consistently outgrossed the deaths of united states citizens from combat etc. ir iraq as well.

Therefore it seems to me that if the preservation of the lives of united states citizens and the prevention of deadly tragedies is so important to some of those posting here, shouldn't they be directing their efforts to outreach towards the suicidal?

And may I suggest in specific that they focus on reforms to the family court system, in light of the strong correlation between the standard denial of equal custody to fathers and their likelihood of committing suicide?

Now, I don't expect any of you to have been aware of this previously, of course, so I'm not criticizing your actions until this point.

But I do expect you to change your priorities now that you do know -- because I do believe that you believe in your stated principles.

Posted by Acksiom at May 18, 2007 02:25 PM

It is really sad that both parties want to make this a political issue. THIS IS NOT ABOUT RIGHT OR LEFT, IT IS ABOUT RIGHT AND WRONG!.......Impeach everyone supporting this for Treason!

Posted by Robert at May 18, 2007 02:32 PM

Isn't it amazing how the worms come to the surface after a rain?
Lex sent me over. God Bless our men and women in the field.
A Proud Navy Mom

Posted by babs at May 18, 2007 02:41 PM

"Ladies and Gentlemen, the wussification of America, illustrated..."

This article really made a lightbulb go off over my head. Americans shouldn't be woosies anymore! We need to double the surge, double the occupation forces to 300,000, get more troops over there to get blown up (oil is VERY expensive these days, costs money AND blood sacrifices...) Anyway, we'll simply HAVE to send more troops if we're ever going to get that wimpy death toll above the respectable 2000-per-month line, like in our good old non-wuss days of Vietnam.

God bless our troops who have done practically ALL the sacrificing. If a condition for invading Iraq had been prime time TV without American Idol, America would have tarred and feathered Bush for saying go. And that's sad. Now we need to either crap or get off the pot, but unfortunately we've wasted all the toilet paper, so either way we're gonna have crap on our hands...

Posted by JoeC at May 18, 2007 06:01 PM

It seems that robert has his frilly panties of fascism all in a bunch.

FWIW, robert I agree,We should Impeach the treasonous in the government. Let's start with Poloser and Reid and throw in JFKerry and Swim coach Kennedy.

Of course the punishment of Impeachment is not strong enough, IMO we should convene a firing squad.

Posted by unkawill at May 18, 2007 06:29 PM

Bravo, Caltechgirl, for having the guts to speak up for common sense. To hear all these whiners on the news, you'd think the terrorists were lining our troops up against the wall and mowing them down by the thousands.

My brother came back from The Land Of Very Bad Things, and he tells me, wothout the thin camouflage line, the Iraqis would be thoroughly screwed.

What is very sad is, most of these soldiers think they are making a difference. The vast majority of Iraqis KNOW we are making a difference. Yet, the butt-heads that are whining on the news ever night are telling us how we are in an unwinnable war.

Gee, maybe if our troops weren't so hamstrung by all the rules and regulations DC insists on piling on them, the terrorists would have packed up their Semtex and headed back to Saudia Arabia, Iran, Syria and Jordan.

Posted by Lord Darth Beavis at May 18, 2007 11:53 PM

Robert,

"Endless wars to support the military industrial complex"? Have you forgotten about 9-11? Have you forgotten that these islamofacists have promised us "convert or die"? Have you forgotten about the millions of Iraqi's that are COUNTING on us finishing the job? Do you realise thst a withdrawl now would mean death for hundreds of thousands of Iraqis? Or are you just trotting out your tired old tripe and hoping someone as stupid as you will fall for it?

Posted by Jim C at May 19, 2007 03:41 AM

Robert,

Get over your pillow-biting, get back to work, and offer more ketchup to those in line. Study the controlled demolition of the WTC on your own time, and stop telling everyone here at work that "Bush Stole Your Dentures". Most of all, pullllease, stop playing with the tin foil. You don't need yet another hat.

-SJBill

Posted by SJBill at May 19, 2007 07:12 PM

Wow. The freaks come out in surges, don't they? Geebus.

*commence eye rolling*

Thanks for posting this.

And thanks to those of you who serve (or have served). You rock.

Posted by Mia at May 21, 2007 12:24 AM

Hey CalTech Girl. The freaks really do come out in surges don't they? The guy who has to give himself a nick 'doctor' is a hoot - he must be compensating for something.

I'm GLAD to be an American and glad I can ignore most of the nonsense in the comments. Thanks for posting that CalTech Girl :)

Posted by beth at May 22, 2007 06:34 PM

Wow, what a stupid chart...
For every soldier dying in Iraq there are 16 wounded ones saved.
In Vietnam many of them would have died of their injuries - the ratio was 3 wounded per one dead.
This is no surprise, considering the advances in medical supply. Today they get a few things amputated and spend some months in the hospital but eventually they will be able to return home.

So, hey, young Americans, chances are good to get out there alive!
So what are you still waiting for? Join the troops! You might only be spending the next 60 years with an amputated leg, a burnt face or something worse, probably unable to live on your own..
Plus that is for an _unjustified_ war, commanded by a government that has been lying you quite a lot. Still sounds good to you? Fine with me. I guess you're too brainwashed to save yourself. Poor people..

Posted by oh my god at May 28, 2007 10:24 AM

On this day after Memorial Day, thank you to all the veterans who served and for all of those who gave their lives on behalf of our freedom.

Posted by Matt Keegan at May 29, 2007 11:47 AM